Biometric Update Podcast connects with ADVP

In this episode of the Biometric Update Podcast, host Joel McConvey talks to representatives from the Association of Document Verification Professionals (ADVP), a trade group that has quietly been around since 2018 – but has become more public with their activity in the wake of the Gov.UK Wallet announcements.

Liaison Officer Alan Gooden explains how the group came to be, and its early strategy of keeping a low profile. David Crack, the recently elected chairperson of the ADVP, speaks on how philosophies about sovereign identity – and new government plans – are fueling new questions about what the future of digital ID should look like. Will providers certified under the UK Digital Identity and Attributes Framework (DIATF) now be smothered by the government that encouraged innovation, or by the titans of Big Tech? Is there a way to foster an ecosystem of providers that can live in harmony with digital driving licenses and Apple wallets?

Runtime: 00:09:23

Episode 3 Transcript

What we’re trying to do with the ADVPs is to give a voice to those smaller players that will need the government or, you know, big tech. 

Joel McConvey: Welcome to the Biometric Update podcast. I’m your host, Joel McConvey. Today, we meet an organization that spent years being a bit inconspicuous, but has recently joined in the pushback against the UK government’s digital identity wallet scheme. Meet the Association of Digital Verification Professionals, or the ADVP.

Alan Gooden: So the ADVP was formed in January 2018, and when it was originally formed, it was actually called the Association of Document Validation Professionals. So only more recently would become Digital Verification.

JM: That’s Alan Gooden, liaison officer for the UK Trade Group representing digital verification providers. A former career police officer, Gooden explains how his background got him involved in what started out as a group of document validation professionals.

AG: Well, prior to 2018… In 2018, it had always been the case that various companies within the identity validation sector, if you like, had tried to be more engaged with government, as government thinking was developing, and with law enforcement. But it was really difficult to get a voice because there was always this concern from within the public sector of commercial advantage and trust, and they just wouldn’t engage individuals. And so when… They were thinking about forming the ADVP, I was asked if I would come on board to actually be that conduit to break down the barriers between government, law enforcement, and the industry, because of my background.

JM: The ADVP was low-key from the get-go, a strategy that earned them significant trust within typically wary government circles.

AG: For quite a few years during that time, we were quite a low-key, deliberately low-key organization with a remit, just to build trust and confidence. We’d share information with government departments. We’d consult with government departments. We got to be known as, as I say, as a body that could be trusted, that wouldn’t rock the boat, that wasn’t going to create issues, could be a sounding board. And we developed those relationships over a number of years. So probably we’re one of the, if not the only body in the UK, where we have regular attendance by government departments, where I think they’re confident to… Because they know our neutrals. They know our stances. They know that they can come into a friendly environment and get the messages out. So we maintain that sort of position. And we’ve always maintained that sort of, you know, friendly stance. And I think probably where we’ve been successful is that we are an agile and flexible organization who doesn’t set out what we do and invite people to join us if they believe in our cause. But what we say is, we are here to deal with the issues that emerge and to represent the views of our members, which is why we’ve been able to flex and move with the current things that are going on, and it has proven very successful.

JM: In 2023, the organization held an election for a new chairperson. It chose David Crack, who runs a company called CDD Spotlight.

AG: David comes from a different background and has a different approach and was very visionary in terms of recognizing that probably the future of the industry is digital and not just about this one transaction document validation, but about actually reusable identity.

JM: Crack’s background took him from financial services to sovereign identity, a journey that’s informed his fresh perspective on the ADVP’s efforts.

David Crack: That vision around personal data sovereignty is, you know, what I’m bringing to the party, if you like. You know, there’s a few of us that advocate that in the UK. Not everybody’s cup of tea in the identity industry, for obvious reasons. But what we’re trying to do with the ADVP’s is to give a voice to those smaller players that will need the government or, you know, big tech. And it just so happens that the way that Ofdira has developed the market in the UK, there’s quite a lot of us.

JM: This interview was recorded before Crack, along with representatives from TechUK and the Age Verification Providers Association, met with UK Tech Secretary Peter Kyle to discuss the potential repercussions of the government’s wallet plan, notably spooked investors. In that meeting, Kyle apologized for any unintended harm the announcement had caused for the firms certified under its own digital identity and attributes trust framework. But the future remains uncertain.

DC: So the question is, are we going to get smashed between two hard things? You know, a government identity and Google wallets and Apple, or is there an opportunity to create something different?

JM: Crack’s vision, which is based on World Wide Web inventor Tim Berners-Lee’s ideas about personal data stores, could gain momentum or get crowded out, along with anyone else not named Google or Apple.

DC: This is an inflection moment and, you know, we may end up not being in that space. And the ADVP really has picked up its membership from the smaller organisations. We’re not going to get the interest from the bigger organisations because of the development and the publicity that we’ve got. But we are primarily reflecting the smaller businesses and their interests. And what we’re doing with that hat on is raising some questions initially to government, but now also around the role of big tech as well. And one of the things that I think is really important is, you know, that the thing about the wallet has highlighted is that the government, you know, decided we’re going to do the wallet, the Tony Blair Institute, you know, if Europe’s doing one and Singapore’s doing one, we’re going to do one type stuff. And, you know, they’ve got a bit further down the road and are having a bit of an oh shit moment about it really, you know. And then you’ve got all the stuff happening with big tech. So the first question we’re raising is, actually, what do we want the UK identity market and the personal data sovereignty market to look like in the UK over the next five, 10 or 15 years? You know, what’s the good? And we think there’s room for a public debate on that.

JM: Crack gets philosophical on the deeper definition of identity, who owns or controls it and what it means in a socio-political context.

DC: Identity is one of those, we all think we know what it is. And then, like, we all think we know what time is and then you discover it’s relative. And identity is the same thing, right? You know, so it seems like the easiest thing that you create these international frameworks. But what does it mean to you and me and our little communities, you know, and that feeling of disconnectness that happens between deprived areas and these global rollouts and all that, you know, you get into that political right wing Trump stuff, you know, reform type stuff. These are all reactions to this globalisation that’s taking place. So having international American companies rolling out digital ID is not going to really solve those type of issues. So what do we as citizens want from our digital identity and our management of our data? Because the only thing we know is it’s not working for us. So that’s the first question. And we’re asking those questions of government, right? So that’s the first question. And we’re asking those questions of government, right? And they say, OK, well, you know, you come up with this idea of getting small companies to innovate is now, you know, at risk. So what’s your plan? So that’s question number one.

JM: Alan Gooden says that with David Crack leading the charge, the ADVP is ready for a bit more time in the spotlight.

AG: We have been more vocal in what we stand for. So we’re actually becoming more visible. And I think we’ve also been quite a leader in bringing together a united cause, if you like, among the industry with other organisations like AVPA, Tech UK and others who we are now working alongside in terms of our response to the current evolution that’s going on in the UK government, shall we say. So, you know, all of that is coming together really well. I think that’s probably why we’ve come to come to the notice of others, including yourself.

JM: Thanks to Alan and David of the ADVP for joining us. You can visit their website at ADVP.org.uk. The GOV.UK wallet story is ongoing. Be sure to check out more coverage at www.biometricupdate.com.

Article Topics

ADVP  |  Biometric Update Podcast  |  David Crack  |  digital identity  |  Gov.UK  |  UK